As the old saying goes, “speed kills.” When it comes to development, a lack of speed can kill, too. Marko Anastasov and the Semaphore team have strived to make Semaphore the fastest continuous integration tool in the market. With version 2.0 of Semaphore, they believe it truly is.
With his background in development, Marko brings a unique perspective in leading the Semaphore team. He knows what he and his colleagues like, and that is the road map for Semaphore. Have a listen to Marko tell us in his own words.
As usual, the streaming audio is immediately below, followed by the transcript of our conversation.
Transcript
Alan Shimel: Hey, everyone, it’s Alan Shimel, DevOps.com, and you’re listening to another DevOps Chat. In today’s DevOps Chat, we’re gonna talk about a company called Semaphore. Their website is semaphoreci.com. And I’m happy to be joined today by one of their cofounders, Marko – and I’m not gonna pronounce his last name well, so I’m gonna let him pronounce it himself. Marko, your last name?
Marko Anastasov: Anastasov.
Shimel: Anastasov. Correct?
Anastasov: Yes, that’s correct. Hi, Alan, and thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure.
Shimel: Thank you for joining us. So, Marko, before we jump into Semaphore, let’s give our listeners a little bit of background on your – who is Marko Anastasov? How did you get here today?
Anastasov: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So my core is, you know, I’m a programmer. Big fan of making – I’m a product-guy-slash-programmer. Maybe that’s kind of the intersection where I’m at, so I like making software products. Been doing that kind of almost since I was a kid.
Shimel: Mm-hmm.
Anastasov: And the kind of when I started being, let’s say, a professional is when things were going fast on rails, like Ruby on Rails, you know, Web development. And so I got into that, despite being kind of C++ nerd myself, originally.
Shimel: All right.
Anastasov: And I just kinda fell in love with ease at which you can kind of make something, put it online, create something useful for other people. I did a couple of kinda noncommercial projects and started a small consultancy, with my cofounder Darko, who is also a cofounder of Semaphore now. And, you know, we’re both also big fans of clean code, doing things – you know, software craftsmanship, all that kind of stuff. And, as we kind of grew ourselves professionally in that whole area, it wasn’t long till we, of course, realized the benefits of processes like, you know – it wasn’t called, really, “DevOps” at that time, ten years ago or something, but we identified, “Okay, continuous integration is obviously a process that any kind of – if you wanna keep moving fast, as you kinda work on a project, this is what you gotta do.”
And so, through kind of adoption of these practices in our own company and kinda having an eye on an ambition to create a tool that other kind of developers will also find useful, we started prototyping and eventually launched Semaphore in 2012. And, from that point, it’s kind of all we do and it’s been a great ride so far, you know, leading all the way to today’s interview with you.
Shimel: Sure. Hey, man, thank you. You know what? It’s funny; it’s not easy, but, when you ask people to tell them about themselves, you don’t wanna blow your own horn too much, but you wanna tell people what’s going. And I think you did a good job with it. So let me – before we jump into Semaphore, you mentioned something that I’ve heard from a lot of other developers, people in the DevOps space, whether they be vendors, practitioners, what have you, and that is they were doing what’s called a “DevOps-like things” before we called it “DevOps.” You know what I mean? And so were you into Agile? Was that something that kinda went with that?
Anastasov: Yeah, I would say yes. Although I never – it was always – Agile itself has always been a bit of a vague concept for me. The first maybe introduction to that kind of thought space, for me, was the “Extreme Programming Explained,” the book by Kent Beck, which –
Shimel: Sure.
Anastasov: So it was more like a practitioner’s path for me, so, as you’re in development, working in small iterations, you know, you’re breaking things down, being ready to adapt to change, kind of not being married to some kind of roadmap, and so on. So it was definitely something that we identified as a good way to operate, but even before maybe the Agile backslash – I don’t know. I didn’t use the word “Agile” myself that much, but –
Shimel: Well, you weren’t doing Scrum or taking Scrum classes and stuff.
Anastasov: Not really.
Shimel: But, certainly, sort of the Agile way of doing software development, right, before we called it “DevOps” or anything else, was kinda ingrained in you, if you will. So then I always – and this is something, Marko, I’ve asked other people about – so one of the unique things about DevOps is we sort of build on that Agile, we build on Lean, but, certainly, ops gets involved.
Anastasov: Yeah.
Shimel: When did you kinda make that jump, as sort of a programmer/developer, to say, “Hey, it’s really important we get the ops folks, the ops functionality, kinda built in there”?
Anastasov: So –
Shimel: And I don’t wanna put words in your mouth.
Anastasov: Yeah, sure. So, for me, it was about – so I come from a kinda small company environment and that was kinda my beginning. And so, in that kind of setup, if you’re kind of being responsible for a product, means that you’re also responsible for the operational stuff or that there is maybe a shared responsibility among developers to some degree, but there’s always somebody who kinda specializes, at least for a specific project, for doing the operations. And there is – I think it’s very healthy, kind of, for a programmer to kinda be exposed to these things because you – as you kind of experience this firsthand, you kind of – let’s say you’re ready to – you’re not maybe – you don’t have patience that much for things that kinda get in your way of getting the job done.
So, if you kind of practice not repeating yourself in writing code, you wanna kind of practice the – try to practice the same thing, when you kinda deal with infrastructure. So I think that’s kind of the line of thought that brought us the kind of infrastructure-as-code, you know, kind of EDU and the movement and the tools force.
And, once you maybe grow out of that kinda maybe very small team kinda environment, I think what you see then is you see maybe the bigger picture of, if you think of continuous delivery as a broader objective of being able to deploy anything that you’re working on at any point in time, as the ideal state that you wanna be in, then being really good at ops means that, for example, if you’re doing microservices, you’re not really that even Agile in the ’90s, maybe, way, if it takes two weeks for somebody to provision you the resources so you can just get started and write the first lines of code in your microservice. So if that can be reduced to five minutes or an hour or something, that’s really great, so.
Shimel: Yeah.
Anastasov: Yeah.
Shimel: So this is something, Marko, again, back when I first started DevOps.com, four, five years ago, there was this big debate over “Is DevOps different at a small company versus at an enterprise?” And, of course, there’s differences between working at a small company versus an enterprise, right? In small companies, you do wear multiple hats. You don’t have the luxury of having a full ops team and a full separate dev team and QA and business architects and all that kind of – you know, you don’t have that. Everyone pitches in and does what they gotta do, where, in large enterprises, you sometimes do have that stuff.
And so, obviously, there’s a difference between them, but, at the end of the day, DevOps is DevOps, right? It’s about doing continuous integration, continuous delivery, and so forth. So I think that’s a – you know, what you’ve described is very not out of the ordinary. I think that’s sort of the path, the track that these things follow.
Anastasov: eah. Yeah. I think it’s about – whether you’re coming from a small or you’re working at a big organization, ultimately, it’s all about “How do we move fast so that we just kinda of – ” the ideal state is when we’re all kind of in creation mode, all the time or as much as possible.
Shimel: Sure.
Anastasov: And it can happen in a small team as much as, I think, in a large team, that things can get stuck, if you maybe – I don’t know – pick the toolset that’s maybe not fit for your needs, where you kind of want to reinvent the wheel or – so I think that, regardless of maybe the team size or the technology stack, the decisions should always be kind of “Okay, what will enable us to kinda stay focused on creating value, versus kinda being maybe, in some ways, slaves to the toolchain?”
Shimel: Got it. All right. So let’s jump in a little bit – you know, we got off on a bit of a tangent, but let’s talk about Semaphore.
Anastasov: Sure.
Shimel: What is it? How did that – I mean, I think you’ve given us a little background on how it came about. Talk to us what’s Semaphore about.
Anastasov: So Semaphore is – generally, our mission is to enable teams to build great products at high velocity. And we do that by making it as easy as possible to enable continuous integration and continuous delivery processes in their organization. We’ve started way back in – about six years ago, when we launched Semaphore initially, it was like we were looking at the tools available and, from our perspective, services like GitHub or, you know – on GitHub, you do a few clicks and you get your repository; you’re ready to collaborate with other people. We looked at, for example, there were already platforms-as-a-service, like Heroku, for example, where, again, in a couple of commands, you kinda have your entire application up and running and you’re ready to kind of iterate and get something to customers very quickly.
Shimel: Mm-hmm.
Anastasov: But, in the area of, for example, just having a scalable continuous integration process, basically, at that point, Jenkins was the only tool that’s available. And kind of this was initially like “scratch your own itch” kind of thing, but, for a lot of people, maintaining and scaling and learning how to do all that, the infrastructure for building and testing their code isn’t really their core business purpose or where they kind of create value. So our initial goal was like, “Okay, can we create something which is as easy to use as, for example, GitHub, but for continuous integration?” so that you just kinda click to connect your GitHub account, select your repository, and we, in many cases, automatically infer what the CI build should be and kind of you’re just off the ground. You have the full continuous integration process automated and running in the cloud.
And so, pretty soon after that, of course, listening to our customers, we implemented some features that enable continuous deployment so that customers or open-source users can keep track of releases and manage different environments. And so what’ve – throughout the years, we’ve kind of evolved from – so, traditionally, it was mostly about when people think about this space as “hosted CI,” so it’s kinda like there’s some – but, at this point, there’re a couple of options, of course, other companies doing the same function. And I think the perspective’s like, “Okay, it’s very – ” but, at this point, 2018, it’s pretty straightforward to kind of automate the testing, using some kind of a cloud service.
But that’s not – if we go back to kind of what we also discussed in the beginning, if the goal is to accelerate kinda the entire engineering organization, there’s more to just running tests, you know? So every tech leader wants to – I mean, their objective is to deliver bug-free products to customers as quickly as possible. So we’re talking not just about testing but also configuration and delivery processes that often involve multiple technology stacks, which, of course, evolve over time. Now we have container technology, for example, which we didn’t have –
Shimel: Changed the game.
Anastasov: Completely changed the game. So the way to do this is to basically implement continuous delivery so that, step one, you automate all the processes and step two is to kind of optimize them, but using Semaphore for automating all continuous delivery processes has so far been – it wasn’t able to support, let’s say, every process that’s needed, so this is why, this November, we’re excited to present the brand new version of Semaphore, which is —
Shimel: That’s Semaphore 2.0, right?
Anastasov: Exactly. Yeah.
Shimel: Mm-hmm. So, Marko, let me ask you this. I think you guys are pretty proud; on your website, you mention your bootstrap. You know, it’s interesting and, when you look at the CI/CD space, there’s a lot of great open-source, free tools, right? Jenkins, obviously, is the obvious one, but CloudBees, of course, has the commercial version, if you wanna call it. CircleCI, Travis – what’s the other one? – City – I forget the name of it. You and I both know there’s several pretty popular CI/CD tools, ARAs and all of this stuff. What do you think the special sauce is for Semaphore, if we’re talking – and our audience is developer-heavy, DevOps-heavy – why Semaphore versus maybe some of these others?
Anastasov: Sure. We’ve always been focused a lot on speed, so “How can we not just provide a tool that automates something for people, but can we give them something preferably out-of-the-box, so that they just save time, comparing to whatever else they were using previously?” So one of the kind of foundational things, when you use Semaphore, is that basically we kind of periodically keep measuring this and it always stays true, is that Semaphore is twice as fast, comparing to all other competitors in the cloud space, in terms of just pure performance.
So this alone can kinda save hours of engineering time to any team. Of course, it depends on the size of the projects and the team, but, if you kinda think back, kind of the fully-service hourly rate of developer in US is about $150.00. So, if you can do something to optimize that, we think it’s a huge win. Over time, we’ve kind of made steps forward, in terms of –
[Phone ringing]
Is this somebody from Jenkins calling to – [chuckles]
Shimel: Yeah, it could be. [Laughs] That was pretty timely, but, no, I think it was something else. Go ahead.
Anastasov: Yeah. So we provide tools that, for example, automatically paralyze the CI builds for projects, so people – which is, you know, large projects, for medium or bigger-sized teams with 100 or more developers, they typically have CI builds that run for hours. And the feedback loop – the kind of feedback loop in which you find yourself working, as a developer in such a project, it’s a pretty miserable experience. So you kind of become defensive. You work in wandering branches; you don’t merge off and – you know, you have flaky tests and so on. So, essentially, what we’ve seen, when people adopt Semaphore is, if they start using our automatic paralyzation feature, they go from, in some cases, from over 2 hours to something like 15-minute CI build. And it’s literally like they just needed to drag a slider and it worked. So we try to do things that really kind of improve the productivity of the teams.
And so far, on the market also, it hasn’t been – in Semaphore 2.0, we’ve kinda took a lot of kinda learning that we picked up along the way and from our customers, especially the bigger customers, and, first of all, we made it really easy to create complex pipelines for companies that need to model the continuous delivery processes. On the other hand, what we think is pretty important is that, so far, this kind of cloud-based CI and CD tools – and Semaphore was part of this. In fact, we kind of initiated this idea of kind of charging per worker or per concurrent some kind of a machine that’s executing your stuff, your jobs.
So, with Semaphore 2.0, we made the decision to kind of provide a service which is, let’s say, truly cloud, so it scales automatically to your needs, so you only pay what you use and you never really have any waiting time, which is a huge bottleneck we see in many organizations. They would maybe purchase some resources on a monthly or annual basis from Semaphore or Circle or some other product, and it’s like, if they are, let’s say, really busy in a certain period of a day or week, their CI just doesn’t process what they need. So we think that, with auto-scaling, developers will always be able to kind of get their work done quickly and stay in the zone as much as possible.
Shimel: Got it. Hey, Marko, man, I would love to talk to you for another hour about maybe state of developers. And I do think you’re right – while speed is really important, as a benefit or an advantage to Semaphore, I think we’re in a world where developers are the top alpha predator, right? The most difficult kind of shoes to fill, the hardest jobs to get. Giving them an environment that keeps them happy, that keeps them working, if you will, in a good way, is a huge bonus than, frankly, making them work with crappy tools. I’m not calling anybody’s tool “crappy,” but I’m just saying, given the choice, I think developers would – they’d wanna work with tools that make their life easier and make it a better experience for them. But we’re at a half-hour and this was way more than 15 minutes, man, so we’re gonna need to end this. Maybe we can pick it up a second – in another chat in a couple weeks or whatever.
Anastasov: I’d love to.
Shimel: But, for now, we’ll call a wrap on this episode of DevOps Chat. Interesting conversation with Marko Anastasov. Close?
Anastasov: That’s correct. Yeah.
Shimel: All right. Cofounder of Semaphore. The new Semaphore 2.0’s coming out; check it out – great tool for CI. Until next time, this is Alan Shimel for DevOps.com and you’ve just listened to another DevOps Chat.
